I like the saying "Pray as if everything depended on God, work as if everything depended on you" -- up to a point, of course. I think Calvinism is a useful model of salvation, but it is only a model. The ultimate reality is probably beyond the ability of our human minds to grasp, so we need to take all our theology with a grain of salt.

-- Ernie P.
"If we are out of our minds, it is for Christ" -- II Cor 5:13

I think your quote is very useful and I also completely agree that God's perspective and understanding (reality) is surely more than our tiny minds can handle. (Praise the Lord!) However, I'm always wanting more on this topic because I meet so many people who are seriously hung up on traditional Calvinism. Mostly because they feel that God must be the direct cause of evil if Calvinism is true. This is a serious issue since, although God is "beyond" us, He has also revealed himself to us in Christ. I have a pretty hard time seeing Christ as the direct source of evil. Anyway, with the grain of salt in mind, why do you think Calvinism is a useful model?
Anne Delke

Calvin was not perfect; but he was articulate and quite
systematic in his studies. He and many men like him broke
away the chains of darkness that were a part of his world
back then. We have much to thank the so called Reformers for.

Well I have been examining Calvin's responses and position
for about 7 years now. While theology is not to be made an
end onto itself, it is important to "believe what you know
and know what you believe". So theology provides a foundation
on which to construct ones spiritual life. What we believe must
be factored out. That is it must be internally and externally
consistent with what we have learned from scripture and seen
in Gods creation. So having a theology that is based on an always
angry arbitrary and caprecious god, who has all the weaknesses of
a man is not consistent with the message of scripture and the
quite benevolent creation we live it. So that leaves out Allah.

All believers and theologians being men and women have a
personal prespective and bias with regard to what they believe
and what they see and or experience. So we are all a bit
bent so to speak. Thus John Calvin came at these issues from
his own base of experience. As we grow older we see things
differently and hopefully experience makes us better judge
of what we see and understand.

All of this said I think Calvin distilled these significant
if not key issues down quite well. Based on my life experience
walking with Jesus for 48 years I have seen these points in
action. I have found these points to fit well with what I have
experienced in my life. God has manifest Himself too me in this
manner.

Total Depravity of Man

Well this one is quite straight forward. The Bible makes it
quite clear that man's righteous is as filthy rags. All have sinned
and fallen short of the Glory or God. A few names, Hitler, Stalin,
Nero, Mao, Poi Pot, Randy Petersen. I am a retch. How about you.
There is something in us that can not help sinning, if not for
the grace of God. Outside of Christ we are broken beyond repair.
That just means our fallen nature unchecked will continue to
sin until we die.

Unconditional Election

This one is interesting, because it appears to make us automatons.
It is suggested that we have no free will. The Bible speaks of
a wide road that leads to destruction and a narrow road that leads
to eternal life. Let think of the Elect as cars on a road way.
Our domain of freedom is the guard rails on each side and the
lines drawn on the pavement. The road has a destination, that is
determined by the road we are on. God places us on the road He
chooses. While we are constrained by the road we have the freedom
to drive slowly or break the speed limit. We can pull too the side
and delay our journey. We can even stop. Since it is God who
determines who is in His family, because we are saved by grace
and not of works. Then when we obey God and work in harmony with
His will then we are doing as Paul says. "Make your election sure".
We are agreeing with God. Life runs alot smoother that way. Also
because God is the POTTER, He determines who is a vessel of honor
and who is a vessel of dis-honor. An example would be Judas.

Limited Antonement

We all should recognize that Jesus Blood was ABSOLUTELY more than
sufficient to cover the sins of the whole world. We also do not
believe in universal salvation of all of mankind. So somewhere
in there we have some sins that are covered and some that are
not. It God is sovereign then He would have the option to save
those that He determined to save and not others. This is not an
arbritrary act, but the action of a sovereign creator who's
decision is final and not open to discussion. So the whole idea
of fairness blows out the window. In fact what is fair is that all
would be sent into perdition. The miracle is that God has chosen
to save many. If Jesus atonement is not limited then God is
sending people to hell that had their sins remitted.

Irresistable Grace

The message of salvation when it falls on the ears of the elect
of God is too irresistable to be ignored and denied. The whole
concept of the Gospel is that it is incredible awsome good news.
God's grace is like sun light shining into a dark damp prison
cell. His grace has a harsher side in that when one tries to run
from God like the Prodigal one falls upon such missery that one
is drawn back. This rebellion may last many years, but God will
always win out. He is more patient and creative in His ways than
we can even imagine. So I don't believe that we can resist if
God sets His sights on us. Remember if we are His elect child
then He Loves us and will leave the 99 other sheep and go out and
get us. This fact is very comforting.

Perserverance of the Saints

I have seen in my life many Saints of God. These are just ordinary
people who have lived hard but full lives. They have experienced
incredible loss like Job. They have had numerous things happen
that one would think would break their spirit and their resolve.
But throught it all sustained by the Holy Spirit they have
perservered. Some have been protected from harm, while others
have had to suffer being burned at the stake. I have read
Foxs Book of Martyres (sp) of Polycarp, of Philip and others who
have given testimony to this truth. If you are truly born again
you will know deep inside that God will carry you through what
ever happens. You will not fall way. It is the power of God
that accomplishes that.

So in closing. I believe that all 5 points stand together and are
interlocking and consistent. I had too work through each one
and see it for myself. The hardest part was that they tend to
run contrary to human understanding and reason. We need to be
sure to look at them from the perspective of God. And in that
case God does not care what you think about His ways. They just
are. Thanks for reading.

No King but King Jesus
Randy Petersen

Thanks for the summary, Randy.
First, let me say that all this info. has been very useful to me as far as my topic for the women's retreat goes. So far, both the Calvinist and Arminian info. have provided sure footing for where I'd like to go.
Just for personal interest...
One question in response to Randy: What are your thoughts on the Arminian view of prevenient grace? In my studies, the brief description basically says that God, in His sovereignty, grants people the grace to freely respond to his calling if they so choose. Since the choice is open to them, the "limiting" of the atonement rests on the shoulders of those who freely say no to God in their pride. Thus they follow the pattern of Lucifer and Adam in having everything they needed but, using the privalege God gave them, they still choose to give it all up. Concerning why God, in his sovereignty, would give this "prevenient" grace, (as you mentioned above)God's ways "just are".
What do you think?
Anne Delke
KingsWay Community

To start with I think we can all agree that there is a Common
Grace that God extends to the whole world. He sends rain on the
just and unjust. He gives us food and shelter. He gives us
other people and animals to enjoy etc. So everyone partakes
of this grace.

Well the term "Prevenient Grace" is new too me. I am aware of
the Weslian position which supports a general call of salvation
"the Prevenient Grace ??" too all mankind that is resisted by most
people amd can be rejected. It has been described as God woooing
mankind back to Himself. It is an open invitation so to speak.

So some respond in their freewill to this call of salvation.
That is some people recognize Salvation for what it truly
is and of course accept it. Recognizing Salvation for what
it truly is one would be a fool to reject it. Though it seems
the vast majority of mankind regards it as pearls before swine.

On its face this seems reasonable. Many people would recount
their salvation experience as resembling this process quite
closely. They heard, they understood, they were touched or
pierced by the message, they responded, and they were changed.

So lets examine how this works from the standpoint of someone
who "is dead in their trespasses and sin". We have a non
functioning spirit, so that could not respond. Lazarus was
dead in the tomb, before Jesus called him out to life again.
So spiritually we are as dead as Lazarus was.

We do have a functioning soul, that is the intellect and the
personallity. It is able to hear, it might even understand,
maybe even be touched in the emotions by the message of
Salvation. But it could only respond at a temporal level.
It would be the natural man and not the spirit responding.
So no real change or new birth would occur at that point.

Our physical body could experience a physiological change
and display increased heart rate and a sense of joy, because
Salvation answers many questions that cause the body to have
stress and anxieties. We fear the unknown and the body
reflects this. So we have a person with a functioning body who
likes what they heard about Jesus and a soul that gives
intellectual assent to that feeling. We now feel real good
and our mind is at ease, but have we become SAVED at this point.
Is this a "form of godliness which denies the power there of" ?
We may not fully realize that we are doing it of our own power.
Is this head knowledge and not heart knowledge ?

So we are still left with a dead spirit. Something must
happen to replace that dead spirit with the Spirit of God.
We must be indwelled by the Spirit of God. Since it is Gods
Spirit; only He can give it. So somehow we need to bury that dead
spirit and resurrect as a new creature. Just as we symbolize it
in water baptisim we go under the water a dead man and return
to the surface a new creature in Christ. Not at that moment, but
as a public profession of what has happen to us earlier.

So how do we become complete ? The defining step is missing.
This is where Saving Grace enters into it. Since Jesus is our
personal saviour. That is we are viewed as the lamb that is lost
and thus Jesus leaves the 99 other sheep and GOES AFTER US. While
Jesus blood has been shed 2000 years ago, He finds us out on that
bleak lonely mountain and redeems us one by one, like that lost
lamb.

It is a personal invitation. We each have our Damascus road
experience, though it varies from one person too another. So
there we are when Jesus becomes real to us that first time.
It is not a Common Grace and it is not I believe a Previent
Grace that is shared with anyone else. It is created in that
moment by God in the Person of Jesus Christ.

While Jesus died once on the cross, shedding His blood fully
capable of remitting all sin, He ransomed many but not all. When
Jesus meets us at that time of Saving Grace it is special for us.
What I had was for me, what you had is for you. That is why He is
called Our Personal Saviour. From my experience and perspective
when Saving Grace is in operation "it is irresistable". It can
not be ignored. God is giving you an invitation to His's Son's
wedding and Oh by the way, you are the BRIDE. Can the Bride not
be at the wedding ? If our name is said to be written in the book
of life from the foundation of the earth, I don't believe God
has an eraser or disappearing ink.

Let me close with the whole concept of Sovereign Grace. That is
God's Grace, immutable and unchangeable. It is not coersive or
deceptive. It just is. He gives it and We receive it. It is like
the air we breath. It is the same Grace that God breathed into
Adam when He created Him in the Garden. When we become new
creatures in Christ, God breaths into us the living Spirit of
Himself, by which we now have eternal life. Only when our dead
spirit is REPLACED by the SPIRIT of GOD, do we have Salvation.
It appears to me that only He can do that. It does not appear
that He does that for ALL MANKIND.

What do I know I am just a humble software engineer. Thank you
for asking me about this. It has help me to more clearly form
my thoughts and pull the pieces together.

Randy Petersen

It seems to me that "prevenient grace" can be reconciled with Randy's example of a person's salvation process.

• God's prevenient grace allows every person's spirit/soul to respond to the gospel message. It is a grace available to ALL mankind.

• Some will choose to reject this message, which was initiated and offered freely from God. Others will embrace it.

• The ones who embrace the gospel message (which was initiated by the Spirit and enabled through prevenient grace) will then experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Their belief and faith completes the transaction - moving them from darkness into light, from spiritual deadness to spiritual life.

Randy, is this reconcilable with Calvinism?

If there is no personal choice, there can be no responsibility. Are you comfortable believing that God is sending people to Hell despite the fact that they had no opportunity to repent and be saved?

Wow this forum is getting interesting. We seem to have folks
on here that really want to engage, and so I will plunge forward.

Well first let me address what Andrew postulated regards
Calvinism reconciling with Prevenient Grace.

Point on point...

>> * God's prevenient grace allows every person's spirit/soul to
>> respond to the gospel message. It is a grace available to ALL
>> mankind.

Well the spirit can not respond because it is dead. We only have
a living spirit when God gives us His spirit. Just as He breathed
the initial spirit into ALL mankind via Adam. Then through Adam
the father of all mankind we fell in the garden. God needs to again
when we are saved breath into us His spirit afresh. So our dead
Adamic spirit CAN NOT RESPOND. That is why Jesus said we need to
be born of the SPIRIT. As with Nicodemus Jesus spoke of the
NEW MAN, born anew. Just as Jesus called Lazarus from the tomb
God must INITIATE the process. He replaces our spirit and THEN
we can respond.

Now our soul is there, but it can only give intellectual assent.
In Corintians as Paul was preaching of the cross, he said that it
was "foolishness to those that perish". Also Jesus said that
"no one could come too Him unless THE SPIRIT DREW them". Each of
His disciples He called Personally. He also said that "only my
sheep know my voice". Men destine for destruction can not hear.
Our mind, intellect, personallity, our soul can only engage at a
physical and temporal level.

And lastly. I do not believe that it is a Grace that is available
to ALL mankind. It appears to be applied individually. That is
why we often refer to ones "personal relationship with Jesus
Christ".

>> * Some will choose to reject this message, which was
>> initiated and offered freely from God. Others will embrace
>> it.

Those that see it as foolishness, IE those that are LOST will
reject. They are as Paul says "brute beast destine for destruction".
Only those that are the elect CAN RESPOND. In fact if your name
is NOT written in the Book of Life from the Foundation of the
World, then YOU CAN NOT be saved. If God is sovereign then it
appears to me that He decides, whos in and whos out. He decides
when we are born, what we look like, smart or not, if we have
talent, where we are born rich or poor, and when we die. That
sounds like a sovereign God who can decide who He brings into His
heaven.

>> * The ones who embrace the gospel message (which was
>> initiated by the Spirit and enabled through prevenient grace)
>> will then experience the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Their
>> belief and faith completes the transaction - moving them from
>> darkness into light, from spiritual deadness to spiritual life.

The elect are the only ones who can embrace the gospel message.
The only way we can have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is if
God places it there. Just as no one can block or prevent you from
being saved if God has determined it to be. You can not improve
your chances by being saved by being smarter, more insightful, or
better looking.

As American we have this concept of fairness that says that God
would not send GOOD people to Hell. Well there are NO GOOD PEOPLE.
Some people are better than others, but only by mans standards.
We are all unexceptable, retched, poor and naked. Until God fills
us with His Spirit, we can not respond.

You say "Their belief and faith completes the transaction". We
need to be careful that we do not think ourselves as co-redeemers
or somehow partners in a transaction with Christ for salvation.
As if for some reason we were more with it or intuned enough to
comprehend the plan of salvation and embrace it.

I believe that there is more evidence of election predestination
and the sovereignty of God in the scriptures than there is
evidence of free will outside of the devine direct intervention
of God in a man or woman life. Devine intervention within an
individuals life is what mascrades as our free will.

So as far as I understand. The concept of "Prevenient Grace"
does not square with Calvinism as I understand it. But then
I am not a theologian. I only play one on blogs like this.

As for the issue that Rich brought up.

>> If there is no personal choice, there can be no responsibility.
>> Are you comfortable believing that God is sending people to
>> Hell despite the fact that they had no opportunity to repent
>> and be saved?

You make the statement. "If there is no personal choice, there
can be no responsibility". This is a man centric proposition.

You pay taxes, yet you do not have a choice and you are quite
responsible if you do not pay them. You were born a man. That
may not have been your personal choice, but you still have
all the responsibility of being a man. So that statement does
not hold water. God states in the Bible that we are all
responsible. "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory
or God.".

You ask "Are you comfortable believing that God is sending people
to Hell despite the fact that they had no opportunity to repent
and be saved"

Well first off I am absolutely certain that God could careless
what I think or believe regards His creation and His laws. Now
as for God "sending people to Hell". That was a done deal in the
Garden of Eden. When Adam fell all of mankind was going to Hell.
So as sin entered the world and the linage of Adam we had a
deadly disease that was fatal. That fatality was seperation from
a Holy God forever. God made the law and He was bound to enforce
that law. So all men and woman go to Hell. God was under no
obligation to redeem anyone at that point.

Through out the Bible there are many cases of people in fact large
groups of people NOT having ANY opportunity to repent and be saved.
Just look at Joshua and Israel subduing the promised land. They
killed 10s of thousands of people with out one alter call at all.
They went in and killed even the animals. Remember God gave the
orders to Joshua. So they never had a chance to be saved. Well
you say that is the Old Testement, we are under grace in the New
Testement now.

Well then as the desciples were taking the message of the salvation
to the ends of the earth, millions of people were dying and going
into a Christless eternity. This was after Jesus had dies on the
cross so the ransome had been paid. The debt was satisfied. Yet
all of these people with no choice and no knowledge were dieing
and going to hell. Unless Mormonism is true we don't get a do
over chance. In fact God initially offered the plan to the Jews
or the House of Israel. So there God was being exclusive until
He gave that commision to Peter and Paul. He had planned to graft
in the wild olive branch of the "Gentiles" all along of course.
Only God Himself knows who he has elected and predestine to
salvation. We witness out of obedience to His command. God gives
the increase.

So YES I am confortable with what ever decision God has made and
how ever He has decided to give His gift in the manner in which
He wants to give it. With my eyes I see the vast majority of man
and woman kind going to Hell. Are they going to Hell because I am
not out there doing my part. NO. That would really be unjust if
your savation was dependent on me being obedient. Salvation is
not dependent on other men and womens actions. I believe that
EVERYONE that God intends to SAVE will be SAVED. What good is
being sovereign if your will is contingent on some lowly human
being thwarting your devine will. God decides to do something
it happens.

Thank you for asking.

No King but King Jesus
Randy Petersen

Thanks for your response Randy! I kept getting kicked out of this discussion, so I haven't been able to respond until now, but I appreciate the time and energy you've put in explaining your position. Much food for thought :)