As I quickly read through McLaren's piece, one man came to mind: Chamberlain. He was at the helm of British diplomacy in the late 1930's as Hitler was building power. Rather than resisting Hitler, he sought peace. Looking back on those years, can anyone conceive that Hitler would be open to reconciliation and negotiation? Yet, Chamberlain pursued the same kind of peace with Hitler that McLaren is suggesting we seek with the present enemies of freedom, who seem even more outspokenly antagonistic and have demonstrated their personal willingness to "take the battle to us".

I think McLaren mistakenly casts the current world situation as one that should warrant a new approach, a "non-warrior" stance, one that seeks understanding and reconciliation. I think that kind of approach may be appropriate for individual relationships, but I don't see any fundamental change in the way that some humans are ready and willing to take away the freedoms of their fellow humans.

As long as that group of ready and willing people are also ABLE to promote their subjection of other human beings, there is a place to prepare and maintain sufficient military resources to resist their efforts. The day America lays aside a warrior stance for some ethereal ideal of "getting along" with the enemies of freedom is the same day we align ourselves with Chamberlain's "framing story". And history has not looked favorably upon his legacy.

While I sympathize with McLaren's vision, I think his perspective of "All Christians should be pacifists" is not entirely Biblical. I agree, McCain's framing is very much warrior, and there is a great deal of danger in that. But just because it is dangerous doesn't mean it is wrong. As David pointed out, the reconciliation "frame" can equally be disastrous (look at Jesus' letters to the churches for more examples).

The hard truth is that there are no easy answers; peace isn't always right, and war isn't always wrong. It is certainly possible that we as a nation do need a more sympathetic and understanding approach to the problems of the two-thirds world (which includes most Arabs and most Muslims). But that isn't necessarily incompatible with a warrior mindset against radical Islam.

As a radical centrist, I worry about both extremes. McCain does seem to touchy, but Obama feels too squishy.

The path of Christ is, more than a rigid ideology, to follow the leading of His Spirit -- which usually means laying down the sword when we want to use it, and picking it up when we don't...

-- Ernie P.
"If we are out of our minds, it is for Christ" -- II Cor 5:13

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4fe9GlWS8&feature=email

I received a link to this video two days ago. In the past two days it has added over 600,000 views. 7.8 million viewings since it went up on YouTube less than 20 days ago.

Politically, McLaren seems to be reading from the Obama campaign teleprompter. His post was too "on message" for me to trust any objectivity there.

Having said that, I think the concept of "framing stories" is a good criteria. Understanding someone's narrative is very helpful in anticipating what someone will do, how they respond to threats, obligations and opportunities.

But I disagree with the standard McLaren uses: warrior-story-bad, reconciliation-story-good. As Ecclesiastes says, "There's a time for every purpose under heaven." Is the Church Age an exclusively pacifistic age? While in college, I declared myself a pacifist and registered with the Mennonites as a conscientious objector. Though I no longer hold those views, they have a strong attraction for me.

Nevertheless, we have plenty of Biblical examples of warrior-narrative as appropriate for Christians: "We battle not with flesh and blood...", but we do battle! And our Savior is depicted as returning as a conquering messiah in Revelation. IMHO, McLaren's standards for "framing stories" are not specific enough to be a good criteria. They are too simplistic, and just as binary as he accuses McCain of being. Reminds me of Animal Farm "Four legs gooood, two legs baaaad!" McLaren makes a gesture at explaining based on McCain's age and military background, but McCain has been a civilian senator for a lot longer than he was a soldier. I don't think he's making knee-jerk responses guided solely by his testosterone-laden "framing story". And I'm tired of our elders being called out of touch with the "new situation" we find ourselves in. That's been tried before and the new guys weren't any better. Stop the lazy generalizations! Look at their records, and talk about the specific issues.

I'm wandering. Better wrap it up. Thanks for the conversation. I especially appreciated the Chamberlain reference, David. Churchill is one of my heroes. I hope McCain will be 1/2 the leader Churchill was.

jor
p.s. I'm reading "The Wisdom of Crowds" and I don't know if this makes me excited that the race is close or not!?! I guess it could be "2 Good Choices" or "2 Bad Choices". I just hope lots of people vote!
--
Your new birth comes from God's living Word. Just think: a life conceived by God himself! - The Message (1Pet1:23b)

I'm with Jor. I swear sometimes McClaren can be holier than the bible. (rolls eyes). Frankly I'm a bit sick of the guy. Loved 'New Kind of Christian', but his latest stuff seems really humanistic to me.

I don't think McCain is trigger happy and I don't trust Obama to "work it out" with terrorists. I don't think so.

~ In Him, Helen ~

McLaren is a postmodernist trying to create his own reality. BTW, McCain was against the torture tactics that have been used lately in Guatanemo Bay. He voted against it. McLaren doesn't have the right information on that. People who sound good when they write, but don't speak the truth are not to be trusted.

"People who sound good when they write, but don't speak the truth are not to be trusted."

That may be true, but we need to have some grace. By that standard, we would never trust any political candidates:

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_mccain.html
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factchecking_obama.html

-- or, for that matter, many of McLaren's critics, who are often as sloppy in critiquing him as he is in critiquing mainstream evangelicals. :-(

-- Ernie P.
"If we are out of our minds, it is for Christ" -- II Cor 5:13

I'm not sure what you mean by "having some grace". What is your point? Should we trust McLaren's characterization of McCain despite the incongruity Cindy points out? Should we trust those "sloppy with truth"?

For me, grace is unmerited favor, not unmerited trust. I might still send McLaren a Christmas present because of grace, but I don't have to trust what he says about political candidates. Nor should I trust his critics when they are sloppy about the truth either. "Wouldn't be prudent, at this juncture."

Fundamentally, I don't think it is wise to trust in man, so yes, don't trust any political candidate you don't know personally. Use prudence, check the facts and pray earnestly, and support the best candidate actively; especially for the (arguably) most powerful political position in the world. And support a political system which--through checks and balances-tries to minimize the opportunity for man's sinful nature to express itself in tyranny and corruption.

Just as in Jesus time, the coins tell the story: "In God We Trust".

BTW, Illinois Governor Blagojevich who was recently arrested by the FBI on corruption charges was elected on a "reform" platform. I think we're getting a wake up call that we've been too "trusting", when the loving thing to do would be to keep untested, ambitious men from being given power beyond their character's ability to hold responsibly. I hope we didn't make that mistake again with President-elect Obama. The Lord has let him be tested in office, I hope he passes the test as should everyone. "Love..always looks for the best" (1Cor13)
--
Your new birth comes from God's living Word. Just think: a life conceived by God himself! - The Message (1Pet1:23b)

Hi Jor,

I think that's a good distinction. I think I was reacting against the idea (which probably was NOT what Cindy meant) that "See, this person got that fact wrong, so we should ignore everything they say."

The reality is we are all wrong about a great many things, so it is tempting to not trust anyone. Yet, God calls us to live in community, which requires trust.

I think I side with Reagan on this one: "Trust, but Verify". :-)

-- Ernie P.
"If we are out of our minds, it is for Christ" -- II Cor 5:13