Hi Anne,

It raises the interesting question: what exactly is God? Or, to be more technical, what is divinity?

One of the more unusual theological statements I heard is that "God is simple." That is, He does not have multiple conflicting components that are at war each other (like we are!).

Most theologies tend to define good as God's character, and if God is simple then clearly He cannot act against His own character.

However, I personally think that is an overly-simplistic definition of "good" (or at least, not terribly useful). I prefer the definition of goodness as "fitness for a purpose". That raises a more interesting question: what is God's purpose? And does He always act in accord with it?

I go along with the Westminster Confession implicit definition that God's purpose (in relation to our universe, at least) as manifesting His glory, which John (usually) defines as His goodness (character) and His greatness (power).

In that sense, God could only be "evil" if He acted in a way that ultimately detracted from His glory. Conversely, it implies the rather strong statement that anything that appears to detract from His glory (e.g., the presence of evil in this world, innocent suffering) MUST eventually lead to the praise of His glory.

Not sure if that helps, but thanks for raising the question!
-- Ernie P.
(P.S. I encourage people to sign their posts, as not every userid is obvious :-)

-- Ernie P.
"If we are out of our minds, it is for Christ" -- II Cor 5:13

Hi Anne

"Can God create something that is evil ?"

Well that is the 50,0000 dollar question.

I have discussed this question with some of my spiritual
mentors on a number of occasions. We tried to do a systematic
break down of the question and understand what the Bible had
to say on this question. So we started at the beginning.

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

So it all originated with Him. He says that nothing that was
made was not made by Him. We have all read Genesis and know
that he created the stars, moon, sun, earth animals,man and
woman etc.

Sometime before Gen 1:1 God created a beautiful angel a
Cherub named Lucifer. Even though Lucifer was the most beautiful
angel previleged with being the minister of worship to God
almighty he sinned and fell into perdition. So that takes us
to the garden and the tree of "Knowledge of Good and Evil".

Gen 3:1
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field
which the Lord God made. And he (the serpent) said unto the
woman "Yea has God said Ye shall not eat of every tree of
the garden".... "Ye shall not surely die" ... "know good
and evil".

Then we all know what happened after that. Adam and Eve were
cast out of the garden and became mortal. "Yea shall surely
die".

So we now have the penalty of death introduced into the
world. The spirit of Satan which had entered into the serpent
was already destine for death and destruction. Satan had now
added all of mankind to the roster of creature destine for
death. If the story ended there we (mankind) would have no
hope and need not read any futher as we would be doomed.

So lets take a short trip over to Ezekiel 28:12. The word of
God is speaking through Ezekiel, but He is speaking to Lucifer.
"Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of
wisdom and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden
of God; every precious stone, ... the workmanship of thy
tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that
thou was created. Thou art the aboited cherub that covereth,
I have set thee so; thou was on the holy mountain of God, thou
walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire."

Lucifer was not only created by God, he was a worship creature.
He was literally a musical instrument. He had purcussion parts
"tabrets" and woodwind parts "pipes". Lucifer was one of a kind.

THEN....

Ezekiel 28:15
"Thou wast PERFECT in thy ways from the day that thou wast
CREATED, UNTIL INIQUITY was found in thee.... I (God) will
cast you out as PROFANE. Thine heart was lifred up because
of your beauty. Thou has corrupted thy wisdom by reason of
your brightness. ... Therefor I will bring forth a fire
within you and it shall devour thee.."

So I believe it is very clear that ......

1. God created Lucifer.
2. God is sovereign and does not make mistakes.
3. God can be Holy and still create a Lucifer.
4. God determins the begining from the end.
5. The fall of Lucifer was not a surprise to God.
6. God was purposeful and intentional when He created Lucifer.
7. The creation, the fall, and the redemption by God's son Jesus
was planned from the beinning and is going according to plan.

The scripture says that the Book of Life was written from the
foundation of the world. So that happened before God did the
actual creation. God knew that all of this would happen. And
since God is sovereign He INTENDED for it to happen this way.

The FALL WAS A SETUP. Lucifer was God's mechanism to provide a
way for His Glory to be displayed. God needed a fallen creation
to REDEEM and FORGIVE. It is all about God's glory. His Mercy
His Love, His Patience, His Grace, His Sufficiency. This act
of REDEMPTION would answer FOREVER in all eternity, the question
that......

"There is no life outside of obedience, harmony, and fellowship
with the author of Life God Almighty". No more questions and
no more rebellion. The question has been answered and the
redeemed "Bride of Christ" are the evidence, sealed in the
Blood of Christ.

Just like Abraham sent his servant to find a suitable wife for
Issac. God the Father purposed from the beginning to have a...
"Bride without spot or wrinkle". His only begotten Son would be
joined for all eternity to His bride the church. Jesus paid
the ultimate price, a dowry of His own blood.

This was God the Fathers intention from the beginning of time.
So YES God can create anything He wants to accomplish His will.
This can all be done by a Holy, Just, Righteous God. After all
He is God.

Just my thoughts on subject, based on some heavy discussion
evenings with a few like minded truth seekers.

Thanks
Randy Petersen

Thanks Ernie,
So it seems you would agree that God cannot violate his own nature. I'm also guessing that you weren't aware of any scripture that would violate this concept.

One aspect of this that I find interesting stems from the ontological argument for God's "necessity". If God is a necessary and supreme being, the fact that he calls himself "I am" is the best name my puny brain could imagine. If he "just is" what he is, all the time and without change - this implies all sorts of things that many theologians and preachers don't seem to acknowledge.

Some ideas:
If God can only be righteous, this helps me respond to those who ask why Jesus is the only way.
If God can only be loving, this helps me answer the "problem" of evil.
If God can only glorify himself, this helps me realize the purpose of my own life.
I could go on and on but the point is this - I find that many people, believers and unbelievers, get hung up on why God has set up His relationship with us in this way instead of some other way. When I think about God's unchanging nature, I find that every other aspect of creation has to function around this one unchanging fact: this "I am" God.

The concept that God is "simple", as stated above, has a profound impact on reality to me. Especially when we run around seeing everything as so complex. God's nature seems to me to be the "theory of everything". However, this "theory" can actually be found by human beings!

I'd like to leave the question open for anyone to comment:
What are the practical implications to the idea that God is unchanging in each of his attributes/character qualities?

Anne Delke
KingsWay Community

In response to Randy's comments on "Can God create evil"? I must say, (with a smile and a chuckle) that your Calvinism is showing! :)
I agree with you in general that God must be the ultimate source of everything and that "everything" must include evil - whether it's through God's direct intentions from the beginning or/and whether it's through His choice to create free will beings. In any case, it seems that you would still say that God cannot violate his own nature since, even if he directly creates evil, he must have an ultimate good in mind. It sounds a little like, "the end justifies the means" but is this a correct evaluation of your comments?

Anne Delke
KingsWay Community

Maybe we should also just ask the question, "What is evil?" Any good definitions...Ernie? I'm wondering, if what Randy laid out is true, and how Ernie defined good is true, does evil really exist? That doesn't seem very Biblical!
Anne Delke
KingsWay Community

Great discussion.

Just think how much more would have been written if
the Apostle Paul had a blog. Wow I can not fathom the
discussions that would ensue. Then again what we do have
is the more precious since it was such a labor of love
to pen the epistles that we have.

As for Evil. Before we can determine that it exists we
need to define what "Evil" is. Let me throw this out.

"Evil is anything that does not conform to the nature
and will of our Creator God. Anything that detracts or robs
from or deminishes the GLORY of God. Anything that mars or
destroys the Image of God He placed on His creation".

Evil is certainly more than what I wrote above. So when we
have a definition then we can determine if it exists ;-)

"I am not John Calvin, I just play him on blog sites" Hee Hee

No King but King Jesus
Randy Petersen

I came across this answer to the question, "Did God create evil?":

Quoted text: "At first it might seem that if God created all things then evil must have been created by God. However, there is an assumption here that needs to be cleared up. Evil is not a "thing" - like a rock or electricity. You can't have a jar of evil! Rather, evil is something that occurs, like running. Evil has no existence of its own - it is really a lack in a good thing. For example, holes are real but they only exist in something else. We call the absence of dirt a hole - but it cannot be separated from the dirt. So when God created, it is true that all that existed was good. One of the good things that God made was creatures who had the freedom to choose good. In order to have a real choice, God had to allow there to be something besides good to choose. So God allowed these free angels and humans to choose good or non-good (evil). When a bad relationship exists between two good things we call that evil, but it does not become a "thing" that required God to create it.

Perhaps a further illustration will help. If I were to ask the average person "does cold exist?" - his/her answer would likely be yes. However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist. Darkness is the absence of light. Similarly, evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good."

*taken from http://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-create-evil.html

I think this is an important distinction. God didn't create evil - just like he didn't create a hole. A hole is the absence of matter. Evil is the absence of good - or better yet - an absence of God.

Hi Anne,

If we define good (as I did) as "fitness for a purpose", then evil is anything which "detracts from or obstructs that purpose."

If the purpose is "glorifying God's character and power", then evil is anything which either i) conceals God's glory, and/or ii) elevates some other glory (e.g., human) above God.

I know in my own life, I tend to commit evil when either I give in to "lesser glory" (e.g, carnality) or seek to elevate my own glory ("pride"). Or, one some occasions, when I deliberate "act out" to wound God...

I hypothesize that this could in principle explain all human evil, but I leave the proof as an exercise for the reader. :-)

-- Ernie P.
"If we are out of our minds, it is for Christ" -- II Cor 5:13

Anne, Andrew, Ernie...

Very good grass hoppers. You have learned your lessons well.

The illustration Andrew gave of God creating something good
and mankind poking holes in it. Or the absence of heat being
cold. So God is GOOD and the absence of God is EVIL.

Dr Ernie suggests that we make choices and choose the lesser
or flawed course. We take the immitation instead of the real
thing. We use something in a way that God never designed it
for etc. So conforming to God's PURPOSE is GOOD and not
conforming and or corrupting God's PURPOSE is EVIL.

Everything God creates is good by definition. When we move
away from God, and act to corrupt what He has made, we introduce
a form of entropy which is defined as evil. So in effect SIN
is an entropy that leads to death. For when we are ultimately
separated from the author of life we die.

Let me think on this one. As far as Sin is concerned I look
at it from an epidemiological stand point. There has to be a
patient zero with the disease. That patient is Lucifer. Now
how he came down with the disease known as sin is the next
question.

This blog site is not for amateurs.
Randy Petersen

Hi Anne

Well I have received a positive report from Cathy regarding the retreat and the great speaker they had. Seems there was
some discussion about God being GOOD. Cathy came back excited
to talk about what was discussed and shared it with me.

I am happy we have some great equipers and communicators at
Kingsways. We have more people who really desire to go deeper
with the Lord than most churches this size.

I am convinced that all Christians need to get a firm foundation
laid as too what they believe and why they believe it. One
bedrock principle is the Character of God. This is critical
as when we have storms in our life we can have confidence that
He is doing a work in us. This is because we know He is our
Loving Father. And He is always Good.

Randy Petersen